Glen in JapanパネルディスカッションTranscript機械翻訳

動画を見て話の区切りを確認しようと思ってるけど、いま電波のイマイチなところを移動中のスマホなので後ほど

パネルゲストの人のスライドとかも対応づけたい

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（1:01:39~）

松島

ありがとうございました。本当に、今後来るべき著書の、さらに日本語訳についても話せて光栄です。

Glen

その通りです。

「Plurality」は英語でも一般的な言葉ではなく、少し新しい言葉で、テクノロジーと社会哲学の要素が含まれています。両方の要素を捉えようとしていることがその精髄です。多様性を実現するためのテクノロジーが存在する、ということを表現しようとしています。

松島

ありがとうございました。素晴らしい基調講演でした。今度は社会で実現するための具体例について話しましょう。実装においてリーディングプレイヤーとなるお二人を紹介いたします。それでは、素晴らしい、ありがとうございます。

thank you very much um yeah so yeah we had actually the like to talk about

your coming books to translate them in Japanese inial

doing and actually the one maybe I think that you know this most translation

about plal itself yeah we it's not so common word in

Japan neither is it in English really it's so and we often confus with divers

diversity and plurality but your great Keynotes sounds like maybe plurality is

a kind of Technology tool for making di is

that right yeah so I I I I hope you

guys will find and I'm sure much better than I can ever imagine a word in Japanese or characters in Japanese or or kanji in Japanese or whatever you know something that captures what I tried to capture in

English with plurality but it would really it's the Chinese that it comes from right that's that's the original

it's that digital and plural are the same thing in in traditional Mandarin I hope you find a way to capture this well in Japanese

but plurality is not a common word in English either so it's it's a little bit new it's a little bit

Tech it's a little bit social philosophy it's both that's the spirit that it's trying to capture is that there's

technology that makes diversity work I see you know what I mean so now we will implementing the meaning of the poity now just everyone okay

thank you very much so let's move to it's a really great keynote

and we we're now going to talk about the examples in upon how to

how you know and we have two leading player for implementing theology for our society so could we just introduce a bit

about that's great absolutely thank you so could you go and anytime you could um

jum yeah yeah absolutely uh again thank you so much

for being here and my honor yeah it's verying and

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田坂

by the way sh as slogan we have a slogan

it's means like a diversity empowers City in the people

だから、もしかしたらこの渋谷バージョンが日本語の本のタイトルになるかもしれませんね。（一同笑）ありがとうございます。ええ、そうですね。

渋谷は文化の中心として知られていますが、9年前、私たちは何もなかったのです。それは東京の中の1つの地区だけでした。しかし、その後、日本外から多くの人々がやってきて、さまざまな地域の人々が混ざり合い、戦後の米軍基地もここにあり、中国系アメリカ人や日本系アメリカ人などが多様な文化を創り出しました。それが渋谷が生まれた経緯です。

Todo 録音確認

Glen

台湾での授与式が2週間後に行われる予定ですね。

田坂

とにかく、私は以前は大手企業で働いていましたが、今は市役所で働いています。市というのは、人々に政策を実施することを意味します。そして、今、私は私たちが抱える多くの問題に気づいています。あなた方の哲学や技術、ここにいる人々が非常に励ましてくれることを願っています。講演者たちは素晴らしいですし、新しいことができるかもしれないと思っています。

Glen

渋谷には何人の人が住んでいますか？

田坂

23万人ですね。

Glen

松島

いいですね、私たちは皆一緒に何かできるといいですね。実験的なことをしましょう。

それでは、市から移動しましょう。

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林

スライドを表示していただけますか。今日来ていただいてありがとうございます。

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私たちは、ブロックチェーンやCPテクノロジーを使用して、ゼロから地方自治体を作成しています。たとえば、これは山間部の小さな村です。わずか1,200人が住んでいます。次に、美しい漁村です。わずか300人が住んでいます。65歳以上の人口が60%以上で、空き家が100軒以上あります。それは、日本の地方地域で何が起こっているかですね。

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my name is Yoshi I work for the Shibuya city office and by the way sh as slogan we have

a slogan

it's means like a diversity empowers City in the people exactly so that's

Japanese but thank you yeah well so yeah so uh sh is known as a center of

cultures but uh 9 years ago we we we are nothing it's just one of the lural r is

in Tokyo but uh um uh since then we we get like a lot of people from outside of

Japan and then like a mix of the different regions people and also the after the war us bace is here and then

like a Chinese American Japanese American and those people creat like a diverse cultures and that's how Shia was

created and then uh what I do is I I'm running this uh Innovation divisions uh

for last four years and then uh I I tried to create a platform of the

innovation uh for example like uh we uh we started a startup visa to bring a entrepreneur

from outside of Japans and then like you're are welcome to use that start to

come I'm getting my gold card in Taiwan yeah Taiwan are you king yeah yeah it's

going to be a ceremony in two two weeks from today in Taiwan for me to get this yeah those of you who don't know about

goldart is a it's a creation digital agency of Taiwan and then you can apply

right now and then you can go to Taiwan anyway so yeah but uh the uh I

used to work for the big Corporation startups Central governments now I work for the city and then the city means

like uh I Implement uh policy to the people and then now I realize lot of the

issues we have and then uh I hope that you know your uh philosophy and the

Technologies and the people here super encouraging the wrting talks speakers it's it's wonderful and uh I hope you

know we can do something really new how many people live in shuya 2

230,000 people okay per perfect so in in the book we have this argument we say what's the right scale for uh plural

Innovation to start well on the one hand you want diversity

within because if you don't have diversity within how can you show that the engine works but on the other hand

you want diversity AC cross because otherwise you can't have a diversity of Innovations so we argue that the best

you know the optimal scale is sort of like what we call the square root scale which is to say that there should be as

many of units of that size in the world as there are people within that unit and

the square root of 10 billion about 10 billion people in the world is 100,000 so city is kind of very good

scale for plural Innovation right so shabuya uh good great fit for us

right good I hope you know we we all can do something together yeah let's do the kind of

experimental yeah yeah project I want to pass to so okay let's move to from City

to the kind of could you show up my

slide could you oh okay all right so uh

I at to thank you for coming today and very

important holay for these people okay so we currently working on

this L CP project uh with an idea of uh creating the local government itself

from scratch and U as you know guys as you know it is said that by 2040 half of

local government disappear in Japan and as the population Decline and the asan

and tax revenue declining also Social Security cost will uh continue to rise

so it's it's clear that uh it's difficult for local government themselves to uh provide to continue to

provide public service and system in their current States but if it's a large

city like Shibuya uh I think it will be uh uh effective to take approach of

reforming the local government uh it's but given that more than the half of the 1,700 local

government uh those are quite small and uh with less than 30,000 people uh

elderly people and so-call depop depopulation earlier so I don't think

there's much point in changing them so rather than that I think it would be better if everyone could just uh create

a new local government who like uh create uh something like a second

government so here we are creating the the local government from scratch while using the blockchain the CP technology

such as like uh uh could use a next

next okay so this a small village in the Deep Mountain this is a area it's only

uh 1,200 people living and the next

and it's a beautiful Fisherman's place it's only 300 people and and uh over 60%

of population uh over 65 years old and there are over 100 vacant houses so

Glen

慣用音：こ てき（漢音：こ せき）発音転記： フー・シー

たとえば、石炭は炭鉱地域と工場を一緒に動かすようにします。ラジオは話さなかった人々を話させるようにします。新しい技術ごとに新しい相互依存関係が生まれます。

彼は言いました、「私たちが民主主義を持つつもりなら、それは古い選挙制度を持つ国家ではなく、人々が何かに影響を受けるとき、それを制御できるようにすることを意味します。それは自治を意味し、民主主義は技術のために死にかけており、技術は常に民主主義を殺します。新しい相互依存関係の新しい方法を見つけない限り、技術は常に民主主義を殺します。」

それがあなたたちに起こっていることです。

林

はい、まさにその通りです。これらの人々は自治を行うことに慣れていますが、日本の地方自治はほぼ120年前に始まり、地方政府に外部委託し始めたため、自分たちの土地をどのようにコントロールし、コミュニティを維持するかを忘れかけています。それが日本で起こっていることです。

Glen

林

that's the uh what what happening in the rural rural area in Japan yeah can I can

I uh mention a couple things about that so first of all um do you know know John Dewey have you ever read John Dewey no

so uh the public and its problems is one of my favorite books of all time John Dewey is uh in the book one of the real

patron saints of plurality and actually I learned that he's very important to

why plurality has been so successful in Taiwan as it turns out that John Dey came and visited

China uh During the Revolution and he uh he one of his

students hushi have you guys heard of hushi he was the founder of Academia senica um

and he was one of the you know the great intellectual advisers to sunat and he um built the whole

Taiwanese education system when the nationalists came to Taiwan and he built it around the principles of John Dewey

who is one who was considered the greatest American educator um but he was also one of the greatest American political philosophers and this book the

public and its problems is very very relevant for you so what what Dewey said in public and its problems is that

whenever there's new technologies people become interdependent in new ways uh you know the coal makes the coal

mining regions and the factories work together uhhuh uh the radio brings

people who didn't talk to talk every new technology creates new interdependence and so he said if we are going to have

democracy democracy does not mean nation states with some old

electoral system democracy means that when people are affected by something that they can control the thing that

affects them it means self-government and so we said democracy is dying and

democracy is dying because of technology technology will always kill

democracy unless you find new ways that the new forms of interdependence can be

governed by the people who are affected by them and this is what's happening with you yes exactly so those people are

used to do the self governance you know but uh uh once I mean the the L uh in

Japan the local government happens almost 120 years ago then and uh we got the uh

I mean the uh so people uh started to Outsourcing the local governance to the

local government yeah so they they kind of forget how to uh control their uh own

uh land and how to keep the the uh Community those kind of Etc you know

that's that's what's happening in Japan so so this this John D thing this is 1927 very old problem but it's very

relevant for us today and no one ever solved this problem because uh still it's nation states it's these old

jurisdictions but technology is so much faster than this uh demographic change so much faster than this uh and we need

to find a way to make those jurisdictions keep up with the pace of

that because if it doesn't democracy ends democracy is not something that

needs to be protected it's something that needs to be created a new every day

uh because if it isn't it just dies it dies naturally because it needs that

updating all the time so here's interesting story so this is my opin U

if I could choose a country like a web service I wouldn't choose Japan uh Taiwan looks like a better to

me however uh looking at the history of the Cooperative movement in Europe is

fascinating uh which is like uh the Spain's mon dragon oh Fair C

Etc I think it's it's the same in Japan because uh I recently discussed with the

uh about the local with the uh member of the National Diet yeah and he said uh

that was funny he said uh okay doing this centu will be cool but but locally

it's Innovation okay go ahead you know that's that's he said that so that it's

changing a lot so uh with the rapid population Decline and aging the crumbling local Administration system so

it's there's very uh big chance so we can create a new the Govern government

or new world in in in rural Japan that's uh what I'm thinking yeah

Glen

I I it makes

total sense and you know um Audrey often calls herself a conservative

Anarchist uh and that sounds like a contradiction uh but um one thing I've

really learned from Audrey and from the tradition of the TA ching and you know taism is that often um because the world

is complex it's in contradictions that we find the truth uh because uh it to

express something simply is almost always to express it wrong uh

そして、それを複雑な方法で表現することはほとんど常に理解不能ですので、パラドックスだけが、常にさらに多くの質問を投げかける唯一のものであると思います。また、保守的なアナーキズムに関して正しいと思うパラドックスは、人だけでなく、社会的なグループも価値を置いている場合、私たちは多様性を信じている場合、同時に革新し、地元の伝統の真実と知恵を高めるために革新しなければならないということです。そして、それらの地元の伝統が官僚主義によって押し流されないように許してはいけないということです。私たちはそれをもっと力強くする方法を見つける必要があると思います。そのためにイノベーションを使用し、それがあなたが表現しようとしている精神です。

and to express it in a complicated way is

almost always incomprehensible so it's only in Paradox that you are always left

to ask more questions and I think the Paradox that that that that you got right about conservative anarchism

is if we value not just people but also uh social

groups if we believe in plurality then we have to at the same

time be innovating but be innovating to lift up the truth and the wisdom of those local

traditions of the richness of those local traditions and not allow them to be papered over by you know

bureaucracy um that we need to find a way to empower that more using the

Innovations and that's the spirit that I think you're trying to manifest

you

松島

ありがとうございます。あと、一つ思ったのは、2年前にWiredに貢献した時、それは、分散化について誤った方向に進んでいる人々についてですか？それとも、私たち3人とPluralityとの比較ですか？そして、技術について触れたので、技術を地元の社会的文脈に合わせてどのように実装するか、その違いについて説明できますか？

Pluralityと判断

Glen

少し専門的になりますが、ブロックチェーンの考え方は、それが誰にでも利用可能なグローバルなパブリックなオープン台帳であり、個人のプライバシーを保護するためにいくつかのプライバシー技術を上に置くというものです。つまり、公共とプライベートの両方が考慮されています。

これは情報のガバナンスについての誤った考え方だと思います。

私たちが必要としているのは個人のプライバシーではなく、多様な社会的グループです。多くの公共が必要であり、公共のものやプライベートのものではありません。多くの異なる公共が必要であり、それぞれの公共は他の人々がのぞき込まないように保護する必要があります。そうしないと、その一体性を失います。

具体例を補うと

Scrapboxをここみたいに「誰でも入れる公開」で使うのでも「誰も入れない個人非公開」で使うのでもなく、特定の社会的グループの人が入る形にするとか

友達と旅行に行ってる時に位置情報をリアルタイム共有して現地で個別行動するとか。

位置情報をGoogleとかに取られるのは嫌だが、友達という社会的グループに対しては一時的にシェアしたいというわけ

データはほとんどの場合グループ、コミュニティ、ネットワークに関する情報を含んでいるため、歪みや市場に失敗を招かずに従来の個人資産として扱うことは出来ない。

飲み会の写真をFacebookにアップロードして怒られるとかよくある

個人のプライバシーを絶対に他人に漏らさない、という仕組みでは「社会的コミュニティ」を創造することに考えが及んでないよねと指摘している

田坂

例として、渋谷のケースについて考えてみました。渋谷は人口構成が非常にユニークで、ほとんどの日本の都市は高齢化が進んでいるのに対して、渋谷は20代から50代が最も多いです。つまり、現役の労働者が多いですが、声は非常に小さいですし、高齢者の方が力強いかもしれません。」

彼らの関心は非常に単純で、自分を守ってほしいということです。若い人々にはあまり気にしないでしょうが、あなたが言っていることは、技術を活用することで変わるかもしれません。彼らが彼らを聞くことができれば、将来の世代に何も残せないかもしれません。

thank you very much um and then the one things I thought is

just um when did you contribute to the wired maybe two years ago that's about

about how people kind of going the wrong way about the decentralization it's kind of the the

compare with what we three and the PO and because you mentioned about

technology just we will use technology with just a local social context why you

know how to we Implement that you know the technology not

necessarily how could you explain about the difference between out so let me get

a little bit nerdy to be just very concrete the the way that a blockchain is conceived is that it's a global

public open Ledger that is uh available to

everyone um and then people put some privacy technology on top of this

to protect the individual privacy so it's public and private

that's the advision so just yeah

um I think this is the wrong way to think about information

governance there's a great quote from Alexander dville he was a Frenchman who

was an observer of American society and he said that um the

Tyrant uh is very happy for people to be

selfish as long as they hate each other it's fine if they also hate

him because um what he fears is that people love

each other because then they can do things and

what we need is not individual privacy what we need is

diverse social groups we need many publics we need not

public things or private things we need many different publics and each of those

publics need to have protection against other people looking in on them because

otherwise they lose their integrity so we need privacy but we also need them to come to a

shared understanding within them because otherwise we don't have that public so the problem with blockchain is that it

thinks about this binary rather than in about the creation of many different

social communities that are empowered to protect themselves and to act together

because that is democracy that the essence of democracy is not about individuals they're a part of it but the

essence of democracy is about empowered sets of people who can

collectively act outside of the state to achieve their common

ends yeah I was thinking about the case of shya uh I um for example like uh uh

our CH is very unique in terms of demographics uh most of the Japanese

cities like H son's helping is uh super aging societies right and then P Shia is

like you know we are our largest population is the 20s is 50s uh so means like active workers are

here but uh still uh the voice is very small and then uh our seniors for

stronger probably than uh the uh our active uh uh ages so

and then like uh uh I think their uh interest is kind of very simple like

take care of me right and then like you know and then so don't don't take care

of like a younger people they they they okay there you know but uh like what you

say is probably like using technology might change the kind of like if we

allows those I mean I I'm really care about my elderly but but but if they we

listen to them uh we probably cannot leave anything to the Future generations

そして、それから、どのようにしてそれを避けるか、そして、それは意思決定プロセスを変える必要があるか、それとも何らかの方法でシニアの利益を保護できるのか、ということですが、

あなたが言っていることは、おそらく、私たちは高齢者に敬意を払うべきだということですが、

これらの高齢者は渋谷だけでなく、世界中に存在します。どうやってそれらの違いを埋めたらいいのか

seniorsだな

彼らの橋渡しをします。私は昨日、未来館に行っていたんですが、未来館に行ったことがない人たちのために、この国には宝物があります。未来館は多様性のための最も素晴らしい物理的な場所です。

私はそこにいて非常に光栄でした。そして、彼らは高齢化についての展示を行っていて、これを私の本の例として使用するつもりです。

見に行くか〜

それは人々を高齢者の立場に置き、彼らが見るものを見せてくれます。技術は私たちを助けることができます。こういった分断を生じさせないように。たとえば、多くの異なる人々が何かに貢献すれば、それは公共からサポートを受ける方法です。おそらく高齢者と若者の両方が解決策を良いと考える場合、それは正しい解決策です。そして、これらの展示物は若者が高齢者にとってどのように困難な生活をしているかを理解させることができ、逆に、高齢者は他の人々からの参加を許す異なる方法を学ぶことができるかもしれません。多くのシステムがありますが、18歳で投票権を得ると何が起こりますか？何も起こりません。それはただの日付です。代わりに、人々が年を取るにつれて徐々に投票権を蓄積できるようにすればどうでしょうか？そして、移民が来て、彼らが投票権を持ち始める日、もちろん、長い間そこにいる人々はもっと蓄積しています。若者が投票しない理由の1つは、彼らの両親が彼らに何をすべきかを伝えるだけだと思うので、両親だけでなく、異なる社会グループの一部である程度考慮する二次的な投票の仕組みがあればどうでしょうか？賢明なデザインで、私たちは老若の対立ではなく、老若が協力して共通の解決策を見つけることができます。それにより、会話の異なる側面をすべて尊重できます。

松島

ありがとうございます。おそらくこれを実装してみることができるかもしれませんね。

それでは、時間がほとんど切れそうですが、地方自治体についてどう思われますか？そして、LocalCoopについてです。多様性の一つについて言及されましたが、組み合わせ可能な地方の制御をどのようにするか。

実際、LocalCoopは地方における第二の政府を作ろうとしているようなものだ。

その可能性についてどう思われますか？

Glen

あまり長く話すつもりはありませんが、非常に自然な方法は、私が言ったこととまったく同じです。私は老若が衝突するかもしれませんが、異なる地方自治体があなたにとって問題であるかもしれません。それは分散しているので、新しい権限の作成のために二次資金制度を持っている場合、異なる地方政府が集まり、共通のプロジェクトにお金を投入することができます。

国政府の支援を受けつつ、分散型の方法でこれが発展する可能性があります。国政府の人たちもここにいらっしゃいますか？それは素晴らしいアイデアですね。ありがとう。ああ、それは素晴らしいアイデアです。実施してみることができれば、それは素晴らしいでしょう。ありがとうございました。

おそらく時間が不足してきているかもしれませんが、質問をいくつかいただければ幸いです。オーディエンスの方、はい、あなた、はい、こちらに来てください。

and then like how we can avoid that and it's like we have to change aition making process or we can protect somehow

the senior's interest but uh what you're saying is maybe we we respect shus but

those shus not only in shibuya but worlds

somehow I don't know like um and we Bridge the difference between them and and you know I was at marikon

yesterday uh those of you who have not been to marikon here you have a treasure

in this country it is uh the most wonderful uh physical space for

plurality I've ever been to uh it's it's I was so honored to to be there and um

they have an exhibit about aging uh that I think I'm going to use as an example in the book because it puts

people in the position of the elderly it makes them see what they

see uh technology can help us uh not make such a divide between

these things it can make us um you know for example

um there's this thing quadratic funding which maybe some of you know it's a way

of if many different people contribute to something that it gets support from the public maybe we can make

projects that get quadratic funding but across age groups so if the elderly and the young

both find a solution good then that's the right solution to

pursue right uh and these exhibits can make the young people understand what it

is about how they live that is challenging for the elderly and on the other hand the elderly maybe can learn a

different way to allow participation from other people so most systems 18 you

get the vote 18 what happened at 18 nothing it's just some day that was

written down what about instead people gradually acrew voting rights as they get older

and we have vote people vote different except what if the immigrants come and the day they begin to get some voting

rights but of course people are there longer have accumulated more what if you know one reason why you don't have the

young vote is that you think their parents just tell them what to do what if you have some quadratic voting thing

that accounts for the extent to which you are part of different social groups rather than just your parents so there

are lots of ways that with smart design we don't have the fight of the old and the young

we have the common cooperation of the old and the young together to make

things that work for all of them so that we we honor all the different sides of

the conversation thank you maybe we will

just Implement that expl in this yeah be wonderful then I at almost at the time

but I would ask you to about what do you think about local C actually and S

because you know you mentioned maybe about the you know just the one of the

plurality is how to make composable local controls yes absolutely and this

local coup is actually kind of trying to Second government in the local area and

how what could you think about them was a possibility so I didn't want to go on too long before but I but I think a very

natural way to do this is exactly what I was saying so I said old and young maybe is the conflict here but

different local municipalities is the problem for you it's fragmented so what if you had a

quadratic funding system for the creation of new

authorities so if different local governments get together and they put money into a

common project the federal government the national government provides some matching funds for this and so new

authorities can emerge from the existing authorities with the support of the

national level um so I mean they they do things like this in a very clunky Way by Fiat I

don't know if you've heard about the West Midlands Authority in the UK but they created a new Authority for several

of the Cities because it was depopulation and so forth but you could allow this to emerge in a decentralized

way with the support of the national level cool is anybody from people from

national government yeah that's nice idea yeah

great oh yeah that's your that's great great idea to to we

will Implement that and that area thank you very much so now that maybe you kind

running out of your time but maybe we could have we should take some question the Audi a great opportunity so yes

count guy you yeah yeah come come on here

bring

質問者:

私の質問は、あなたが民主主義のスケールのアイデアを持っていると言ったのですが、それは200,000のようなものですか？そして、それについて、古代ギリシャの民主主義のような本がまだ存在しているので、何世紀も前のことですが、それは年100くらいだったと言います。だから、どのようにして古代の民主主義を見つけ、質問を持っているのですか？

Glen

時には私たちは歴史から学ぶべきで、歴史は何かを教えていると思います。100,000は革新の素晴らしいスケールだと思いますが、もちろん、それ以上のスケールやそれ以下のスケールが必要です。それは最初に試されるのに非常に良いサイズです。ギリシャの民主主義は非常に興味深い実験で、その中から何かを学びました。私たちはもっと学ばなければなりませんし、もっと進んでいかなければなりません。

ギリシャの民主主義から学ぶべきですが、今ギリシャの民主主義をやるべきでしょうか？そうではなく、私たちは今日も彼らが進んだように前に進むべきです。それが、そういうことです。

質問者:

ありがとうございます、本当にありがとう。お礼を申し上げます。

not like your question I I just asking you to could you sign my book through of

course yeah I have one so happy after this if people want things

to or thank you so much um that's that's no question yeah so uh my question is so so

you said like you have like idea scale of democracy is that like a

two, 200,000 yeah and then so so I it's still some books about like a gek gek

like a democracy ancient Greek democracy so so um some centuries ago so and then

they say like uh it it the size the size of the Democracy or the size of the diet

in leag was like a l year 100 guess so so so I have k about so how do you how

do you find ancient like like democracy and do you have any question or so

sometimes you we should like learn from history and then history says like something that so so I think that

100,000 is a great scale for Innovation but of course things have to scale above that and they have to scale

below that in order for it's just a very good site for things to be tried out for

first time like like Greek democracy was an experiment very interesting experiment we learned some things from it we need to learn more we need to go

further that's we shouldn't get stuck on this you know the the the the bad way to honor an innovator is to treat them like

a god the good way to honor an innovator is to emulate them is to say I can be

like that you go to the Jefferson Memorial in the United States uh and it

you'll see on the wall that he says uh that every 30 years the Constitution needs to be Rewritten and then you go to the people

who admire Thomas Jefferson in the United States and they don't want to touch the Constitution at all so that's

a paradox right you read the words of Jesus Christ you read the words of

L uh and then you see the way that those things are practiced today and uh people

should emulate uh they should not write in stone you know and uh that's yes we

should learn from the Greek democracy but should we do Greek democracy today no we should

push forward like they pushed forward in in the same way today you know that's

yeah that's what it is thank you very much thank you so much

thank you and so

質問者2:

Glen

音声はそう言ってた

人々を何らかの順序にランク付けすることに反対する方法は2つあります。一つは平等で、次元を減らして順序を定め、もう一つは多くの次元があるためランク付けできないとすることです。本当のビジョンは、正直なところ、民主主義という言葉は人々が少し理解できるものなので、私たちはそれについて話すのですが、本当はそれは民主主義ではなく、多様性が正しい方法です。

質問者

完全に同意します。しかし、実際のところ、多くの人々はこの国、他の民主国で、数年ごとに誰かの名前を書くことさえ難しいと感じていると思います。それは非常に簡単なことですが、人々は参加したりコミットしたりする必要を感じないことがあります。ですから、人々が理論的にはこの多次元性をナビゲートするのに役立つであろう複雑な社会に参加し、コミットすることをどのように期待するのか、どうでしょうか？

Glen

投票で政治家の名前を書くことはとても狭い帯域の通信路で、情報が失われている

LLMの発展により、より良い通信路ができればそれらの情報を取り入れてより良い政治になることができる

質問者

Pluralな生き方が、名前を数年ごとに書き留めることよりも、実際には人々が自己統治し、異なる方法で生活していたことに、非常に適している可能性があり、それは大成功となるかもしれません。

毎回店に行くたび、街で経験するたび、メトロで問題が発生するたびに、何かを考えます。では、これらの考えをどのようにして自然な言語で簡単に表現し、最終的には社会的に行動可能な意思決定に変換しますか？ 答えは、通常AIと呼ばれるものと、それらを学習し、いくつかのモデルを使用して好みを定量的に表現する方法を構築できる自然言語モデル、そしてそれを検討した方法を提供するツールの組み合わせです。 それが二項投票またはそれよりも洗練されたバージョン、または自然言語処理に基づく集合意思決定であるかどうかにかかわらず、それらの自然言語を直接受け取り、何かに変換できるものです。 私たちは、情報を失っています。名前を書き留めることがどれだけ難しいかという話をしましたが、人々はいつも何かを表現しており、それを失っています。だからこそ、私たちが求めているのは、名前を数年ごとに書き留める必要があるという必要性から解放され、私たちがより自然な社会的パターンの中で生きることを可能にするリジッドな構造ではなく、技術が私たちに、より自然で多様な社会的パターンの中で生活する必要があり、それが大成功の一環であるかもしれないという可能性があります。 ありがとう。 最後に、質問をしたい女性はいますか？ 日本で非常に重要なことの1つは、包括性をさらに推進することです。このパネルでも課題があります。だから、質問を持っている女性がいる場合、積極的に参加していただきたいと思います。

質問者

ありがとう。

Glen

では、最後に、質問をしたい女性がいるかどうか教えていただけますか？日本では包括性をもっと増やすことが非常に重要な課題です。このパネルでもその課題がありますので、質問を持っている女性がいれば、積極的に参加してもらいたいと思います。

that's thank you for the discussion um I have a question yeah you position

digital democracy among the other two branches synthetic technocracy and corporate libertarianism and by virtue

of that I I do think that there's trade-offs to all of them like synthetic technocracy would have issues with you know um basic human rights or equality

or corporate libertarianism with um the the gap between capital y y and um what

would you say that the trade-off for um digital democracy is uh for example not

to mention you know I think a PR pretty obvious one is um the introduction of

significant complexity for participating individuals another one could be you know

it uh it makes it easier for certain interest groups to participate obviously

but but that in itself whether that's like an entirely good thing is a you know macroscopically itself I think is

worthy of a discussion so what are the sort of expected hardships of trying to

achieve digital democracy and how would you say that you know your your organization or you know in Taiwan or or

I think the best question is for us individuals to to sort of see that and um overcome that yeah I mean I I think

that um Han once said that uh one of the greatest freedoms is the freedom from

politics and incorrectly conceived or incorrectly pursued uh democracy uh is

the tyranny of politics right it's it's everyone having to all constantly be

thinking about uh things that are very far from their experience but that they're being called upon to consider as

some political issue so the the correct word conception that I would

have is actually not democracy exactly it's plurality it's many different

scales of interaction with many different Technologies empowering all those things to simultaneously exist and

that the one person one vote image of tech democracy the political quality

image of democracy is not the right way to conceive of it you know there's two different ways to be opposed to like

ranking people in some order one way is equality that reduces the dimensions it takes them order and puts it down the

better way I think is to say there are many more dimensions and so there is no way to rank because it's more complex

than that so so the real Vision honestly the Democracy word is one that people can grab a little bit so it's we talk

about it but but really it's not democracy it's PL that that is is the right way to

conceive it so yeah I completely agree but what do you think about the fact that in reality a lot of people probably

in this country especially but in many other Democratic countries they people find it hard to even go write a person's name every few years like that's a very

simple thing to do yeah and even that's like you know not like people don't feel

the need to participate and like commit to that right so how would you even expect people to particip iate and

commit to an added complex society which you know ideally theoretically would

help navigate this m multi-dimensionality that we have well I think we we we need to meet people where

they are and people where they are is often uh expressing themselves on many

things every time you go to a store every time you have an experience in the street every time you have a problem with the Metro you think something so

how do we take those thoughts and make it easy for them in natural language to them eventually translate into decisions

that are socially acted upon and the answer is some combination of you know

what's usually called AI having natural language models that can learn those things that can build a model of how

you'd like to express your preferences quantitatively using some model and and tools that allow the Expressions to

translate into action in a thoughtful way whether it be quadratic voting or some more sophisticated version of that

or even natural language processing based collective decision making things that can directly take those natural language and translate them to something

so uh you know that's we we need we're losing all that information you know you

you talk about how hard it is to write down the name yes but but but people are expressing things all the time and we're

losing it so there is possibility that you know this plural way of living might

actually come more naturally to people as a whole then actually you know write it down a name every few years which

that's what we want that that the the writing down a name a few years is is like some bureaucratic you know Vapor

like 19th century thing of structure that we put on to people who were

governing themselves and living in many different ways and and Technology might free us from the need to have this very

rigid structure and might allow us to live in in those more uh natural uh you

know and diverse uh social patterns that that that would be a great success I think thank you cool um before we go is

there a woman who'd like to ask a question because I know a very important thing in Japan is that we we have have

more inclusion and this is this is a challenge here uh on this panel as well

so if if there's I I would like to actively encourage if there's a woman who has a question to uh answer that

they come up and join us

質問者3:

ねえねえ、私、あなたが多様性のある女性だと思いますよ

Glen

その通り、ありがとう。

質問者3:

これは別の質問なんだけど、ブロックチェーンについて、悪い点は何か教えていただけますか？あなたはブロックチェーンがオープンレジャーであり、プライバシーを持つと言いましたが、私はそれが正しいアプローチではないと感じました。言ったことがわからないんです。もう一度説明していただけますか？

Glen

別の構造を説明しましょう。最適なものではないかもしれませんが、ブロックチェーンとは異なるアプローチを示すものです。最近開発しているアイデアで、私たちが最近考えているのは、指定された検証者チェーンというものです。これは、指定された検証者署名というものを持つ人々のグループです。指定された検証者署名は、メッセージを送信する方法で、メッセージを受け取る人は、あなたがそのメッセージを送信したことを知ることができますが、その他の人はそのメッセージを送信したことを知ることはできません。たとえその人がそれを共有しようとしても、他の誰もが実際にそのメッセージを送信したことを知ることはできません。

この方法は、メッセージを送信すると、その人が他の誰とも共有できないようにする方法です。コミュニティの人々が共通の台帳を共有していると想像してみてくださいが、その台帳が何を示しているかをそのコミュニティ外の誰にも証明できない場合、そのコミュニティに他の人を加えてその台帳を確認することはできない。

あー「ledger=台帳」だ

ですから、ブロックチェーンの代替案の一例を示したわけです。同様のツールを使用していますが、異なる組み合わせで、お金の概念ではなく、コミュニティの概念に根ざしています。

わかりましたか？

はい、わかりました。ありがとう。でも、質問があります。

どうぞ、質問してください。

このアプローチを採用しているスタートアップや人々が、すでに何かアプリケーションを作成しているのでしょうか？

ですから、この方向に向かった発展が進行中であり、多くの可能性がありますが、まだまだたくさんの仕事が残っています。

多くの開発が進行中ですが、まだまだたくさんの仕事が残っています。新しいことがすでに行われているというわけではありません。

わかりました、ありがとうございます。

どういたしまして、喜んでお手伝いできました。

ありがとうございます、ほぼ終わりにしましょうか。

はい、もう少し時間がありますが、お一つか二ついかがですか？

こんにちは、ありがとうございます。

これは少し違うトピックなのですが、私は映画制作者です。

質問は非常に簡単です。あなたが言った映画について詳しく教えていただけますか？

そして、このような複雑な技術的な......新しい技術の場合には、ちょっと想像しにくい。

h 4LOPhthe

blockchain you said you know blockchain is open lger and also we put on the

Privacy you but I canot get you know that is not the uh right way to approach

you mention but I did not guess so could you please repat again please um let me describe an alternative structure that

I'm not saying is the optimal one but it gives you a sense of what you might go for that's different from a blockchain so this is an idea I've been developing

recently that we call um a designated verifier chain so what this is is it's a

group of people who have um do there's something called the designated verifier

signature so a designated verifier signature is a way of sending a message

where the people who you send the message to can know that you sent it but

no one else other than that person even if that person wants to share it can know that you actually sent that message

okay so um this uh is a way to stop when you send a message that person from

sharing it with anyone else all right right and so imagine a community of

people who share a common Ledger but they can't prove to anyone

outside of that Community what that ledger says without that Community collectively

yes adding that other person to The Ledger all right so that would be a data

structure that creates Collective privacy um interesting and it creates it

it prevents double spend within the community but outside the community no

one can ever verify non-double spend and therefore the money is not worth anything to anyone outside the community

right right so so so that gives you a sense of an alternative to a blockchain

that uses some similar tools but in a different combination that grounds itself in the notion of

community rather than in the notion of money you see what I mean yeah yeah yeah yeah oh W thank you so much but I I also

have a question so is that kind of the approach some you know startup or some you know people already creating some

application kind of thing yeah there there's absolutely various things going on you know in the space and the

florality you know there's radical Exchange which is a network of all the people building things like this and

there's um you know I run a research group at Microsoft that does things like this as well um so so absolutely there

are developments going on in that direction but there's always many many many more to do and uh you know I I say

that in in uh in the more Singularity Visions uh there's like the truth and

you're digging down to the truth you're like on the earth and you're digging down to the truth and you hit the core of the truth and you pull throw away

false in plurality you're on the surface of the Earth and you're planting trees

and the trees as they grow up yeah they grow out and there's more space right so the further you go the

more space there is and so that's that's right the more we innovate the more we

advance the more there is to do not uh people have already done it you know

what I mean so yeah yeah thank you so much yeah pleasure

thank you very much almost three do you still have a time to just have a yeah I

have maybe one one uh yeah we should probably go pretty soon but I'll take maybe one two yes give

someone is that okay

yes hello thank you yeah um so this is kind of slightly different topic but I'm

I'm a filmmaker yeah um so barly just a very short question I'm curious about the film you mentioned being absolutely

can you tell us who yeah so the director is Cynthia Wade um she's an Oscar winning uh uh documentary maker and then

there's um another there there's the producer is um Terry witcraft who's an

Emmy winning former ABC News producer uh and it's going to be our aspiration is

the first cc0 um git based fully open- Source uh

film uh and so everything will be available for people to remix uh as they

choose so yeah that answers another question I had but uh uh I was also just

asking around the time of like radical markets and radical exchange starting you talked a lot about artists and

absolutely meaning to imagine the future that these kind of Technologies could bring into being I just wondered if

so you had mentioned civilization game as a good example I haven't played it I just wonder if you had any other

examples of like cuz you can imagine kind of someone who has architectural vision for the

future it's very easy to kind of imagine how as a filmmaker you can put that in

the world of the film and people can kind of see and feel it um with in a kind of natural way of a

story but that's a bit harder to imagine in the case of at least for me in the case of kind of me Democratic mechanisms

and this kind of complicated technological um new technologies and I just wonder if you if

there's any other examples of that that you're really inspired by uh yeah uh ruana emer's book a half-built garden is

a great example

Glen

それが「Star Trek」の魅力です。それは伝える素晴らしい物語です。それは多様性と行動です。ただし、メカニズムは1つの要素に過ぎません。何が行われているかの精神が重要です。メカニズムはこれを達成するのに役立つことができます。そして、この本の多くの章では、最初のスライドに表示される人々の物語から始まります。この世界では、お金を支払うのではなく、友達を紹介するより良い方法を見つけます。そして、そのテクノロジーはそれを可能にします。

複数セットにまたがる話もあるし、過去の登場人物が登場することもよくある

ありがとうございました。それでは、お持ち帰りましょう。ありがとうございました。話し合いが終了しました。練習も終了しました。ただ、興味がありますが、GRは次回の日本に来る予定ですか？それで、私は1週間日本に滞在する予定です。日本で何かを行います。調整方法を考えます。メッセージを皆さんに伝えましょう。皆さんがリーダーであると希望しています。そして、この本ツアーがどのように進行するかについては、オードリーと私が行くだけでなく、本を書いている人々、地域コミュニティで本を制作している人々も話します。世界中で数千人の人々が本ツアーを行うことを期待しています。これはもっと大きくなるでしょう。絶対にもっと大きくなります。

um Star Trek is the best example of all this stuff marayon is

number two uh really Mar kind is wonderful uh but Star Trek is is

fabulous Star Trek is an entire world it's not just has this Vulcan philosophy

the whole narrative Arc of Star Trek is not about Good and Evil it's about

people who are different figuring out how to be

allies overcoming various of communication overcoming cultural barriers that is the drama of Star

Trek uh that's a wonderful story to tell you know and uh that that's that's

plurality and action you know um but you know the the mechanisms are

only one thing the spirit of what is being done is what matters and the mechanisms can be alluded to because

they help achieve this you know because they and and you know we do that and and

in many of the chapters of this book begin with stories by Noah yet uh who's

one of the people on that first slide uh about um a world with with these things

but but what matters is not the mechanism matters is that in this world rather than you pay with money you uh

find a better way that I make an introduction of a friend and you are a guest in my house you know and that technology

facilitates that but what matters is that I don't use the money I use my relationships you know uh what matters

is that in this future um we have media

that tell inclusive stories uh and that there's support for that and yeah there's some economic mechanism

behind that but you don't need to describe the mechanism what you need to describe is the media and the way that it works you know um but yes there there

are other examples ursul leuin is a wonderful example of of things like this

um so I think there are there are not enough there are never enough but but there are good there are good examples

Richard Garfield the creator of Magic the Gathering is making games about many of these ideas that include them in the

Dynamics of the game in Civilization 6 just has these things but also the voting in that is quadratic voting so

that's showing millions of people every day what quadratic voting is so yeah

thank you very much thank you very much so far complete

in we just let's go to the yeah and and and hopefully when we

come back this summer we do something with ion that would be wonderful yeah thank you very much so

may take it thank you for coming everyone so the talk talk session ended

practice also the uh I'm just curious about um does gr's going to be coming to

next D to Japan yeah so uh I'm going to be in Tai for a week uh and so we'll do

something in Japan we'll we'll figure out how to make it all coordinate we got a we got figure out the best way to do

it but let's uh let's let's bring the me message to everyone and let's uh let's

really make a difference here and with with with all of you uh as the leaders and I hope many of you know the way the

book tour is going to work is that yes Audrey and I will go but also the people who are writing the book the people who are doing the books in local communities

they will talk and uh we're going to have thousands of people I hope around the world uh doing the book tour right

this right this right this is's going to be more absolutely yeah all right so uh

um wait I just want to announcement funding

the commons Tokyo we are preparing by prity Tokyo and the D Tokyo and funding

the comment is one the event of the maybe you guys has interest like this

event FTC is the more big big bigger bigger huge like this

so uh yeah maybe the is going to be coming here let's try let's try to find

the week that we do this and the week that we do you want to come yeah yeah come it's actually the same week we're

doing like polarity Summit July 27 so in taipe we're also doing polarity Summit

uh July 27th if you guys are interested in any of the concept Glen just mentioned come to Taiwan in July 17 uh

27th and uh it's like going to be the same week as funny Comm Tokyo so like

right out of Tokyo well let's let's let's let's figure it out